For a few months the term “ALT.NET” has been gaining traction on the blogs I read, starting from a post by David Laribee in April. From there it has taken off, with an ALT.NET Conference taking place this week. So it’s perhaps timely that Sam Gentile has written a post entitled “Goodbye CodeBetter and ALT.NET” which talks about the ALT.NET movement and some of the people surrounding it.
ALT.NET is a divisive thing. No matter what they tell you.
So says Sam, and I’m in agreement. The ALT.NET conference is so cliquey that it hurts, and that’s really highlighted by an interesting bit of news that came out yesterday regarding Microsoft’s upcoming MVC framework. I think it’s interesting that they’d talk about it at a conference where most of the people will already be using this sort of technology. Just as I find it pointless that you’d go to a conference to discuss the stuff that everyone there already knows. DDD, BDD, MVC – these aren’t things that will be unknown to people attending the ALT.NET conference.
ALT.NETter A: so… heard of that new BDD business?
ALT.NETter B: Yep.
ALT.NETter A: Oh, well there’s this great new idea called DDD!
ALT.NETter B: Yeah, right into that too.
ALT.NETter A: Oh.
And so on. But wouldn’t that conversation have been a whole lot more interesting if the second developer hadn’t heard of those ideas?
The ALT.NET conference is barely about the underlying technologies or ideas. It mainly serves to allow all of the ALT.NET developers to come together to talk about how great it is that they are all ALT.NET. Us, and them. Back to Sam:
I am not going to use the term “Morts.”
Good, because it’s an offensive term, but it’s one that’s being thrown around by the ALT.NET gang with abandon. Scott Hanselman, a great blogger, had this to say from the conference:
Mort is crying because mommy and daddy are fighting.
That’s the kind of patronising way in which the term is being used; I mean come on, the damn thing is short for “mortal” which is a pretty clear indication of how the people who use “mort” think of themselves: Gods of their domain. Overseers of the lower developers who haven’t had the resources, or the guidance, to work with the fantastic array of non-Microsoft technologies that exist.
And in order to address that imbalance, the ALT.NET mob organise an enormous desert circle-jerk, and I call bullshit. If they really wanted to change things then they should be writing about their techniques in detail, coming up with introductory guides to DDD, TDD, mocking, creating screencasts, or giving talks at mainstream conferences, or producing tools to make the level of entry to these technologies lower than it is.
A lot of people in the ALT.NET camp may not feel that they’re being divisive but I can tell you that by propagating this idea you’re creating a line in the sand, with the highly-knowledgable on one side and the masses on the other. You’re not encouraging dissemination of your information, you’re just creating another impenetrable gang of developers that is almost opaque to the guy on the ground.
UPDATE: I’ve updated this post on my LosTechies blog – see Why ALT.NET?
I think it’s really unfortunate that so many people take such offense to the ALT.NET community, and the conference. I was there, and it wasn’t at all like you describe. There were developers of all skill levels, and there was productive discussion and debate in every session I attended. There was a great deal of respect for all ideas and skillsets. I learned a ton. The whole reason I went to the conference was to interact with a community of people that were doing things I was interested in.
I would love it if my local .NET user group did more of that stuff, but I really don’t think that is their core audience. And that is fine! They are serving their core audience well. I am hoping that by giving a name to they types of things we are interested in, we can foster a bigger, more interactive and INCLUSIVE community that can take root at the local level. Even my local user group has been breaking out into focus group meetings for SQL Server, Office, etc. Why NOT ALT.NET? It doesn’t mean I won’t go to a SQL Server meeting and it doesn’t mean I don’t want a Sharepoint guy to come to an ALT.NET meeting. We can all learn from each other, and that is what I want most. I learn best from people – and I want to help build that community.
On a side note – it would be fantastic if there was more blogging with specific examples and tutorials – I am a big fan of your screencasts. JP Boodhoo does a great job with this. I am still learning a lot of this stuff but I will look for opportunities to share as well. (but nothing beats face-to-face conversation).
Brian Donahue“Why NOT ALT.NET?”
In my eyes you’re asking the wrong question. It should be “why is there a need for ALT.NET?”.
Colin RamsayHanselman quote was in a contextual joke. My bad for not posting that.
Your example of a conversation at Alt.NET was accurate for a small percentage. There were developers there who did not know anything about any of the sessions and they asked serious questions.
The conference attendees spent 3 days seeking another name because everyone who didn’t go is so fixated on the label. Even attendees were. I personally like Pragmatic.NET but that is just me.
I don’t know how many time I heard leaders in the industry state this verbatim: “This is NOT us versus them.”
“…or giving talks at mainstream conferences” This is exactly what we did this weekend. Except the audience was able to interact in real-time. No central speaker.
Jason MeirdthWell, I’m not sure about the divisive nature of ALT.NET. I was there and, as part of the Los Techies crew, I won’t deny that I was the least certain as to why I was there.
There certainly were good sessions and there were BAD ones (I was turned off by certain Alpha geeks who would NOT move to a round table when one was called for). But in the end, I saw that this group has influence over Microsoft.
As an example, the MVC architecture presentation where Scott Guthrie mentioned a certain CodeBetter individual as a strong influence for MVC even coming to fruition. The MVC was very much like Monorail, TDD was part of the presentation and so on…
Are certain techniques alternative? Sure… Ruby, maybe. BDD is fairly new.
But I’m not for alternative techniques. You’re right, most of these techniques are old hat for us. Certain individuals may have been taking the stand that this was truly an alternative conference… if that was the case, then I really didn’t see them there at the conference (with exception of a few unique notables maybe).
I don’t consider myself a Mort, but I’m certainly a Mort wannabe – I’m sure I’ll end up one as a result of outside influences like family and whatnot. That’s why I’ve placed myself squarely in the Microsoft camp. In the end I hope that many of these techniques become truly mainstream and frankly, I hope MSFT is the focal point for making them mainstream.
Microsoft was there – in force – taking notes, tactfully criticizing, and demonstrating that they ARE making these ideas mainstream. That part to me, was awesome.
Nelson MontalvoIts unfortunate that you weren’t there to experience it for yourself, as it was nothing like you imagine. There is no line. There is no clique. The reason you weren’t there is NOT because you weren’t allowed to come, it was because you chose not to. There is no certification process to be part of ALT.NET. You don’t have to ask permission. If the idea of looking beyond a single vendor for tools and guidance appeals to you, then you are part of the group. That’s it.
Joshua FlanaganSo, aparently there must be some truth to this Alt.Net thing or you would not have felt the need to resort to inflamatory language and name-calling – two practices which you seem to be against from this post.
While some of what you have stated is valid, much of this post is misguided and some is completely false.
You state, “Just as I find it pointless that youâ??d go to a conference to discuss the stuff that everyone there already knows. ” Your assumption that everyone in attendance knew the ins-and-outs of everything is just plain wrong. Check out my blog post to this effect here:
http://testinfected.blogspot.com/2007/10/altnetconf-cool-tools-dont-make-cool.html
For another instance, take the fact that the vast majority of attendees could not clearly define BDD – one of the very terms that you listed. I have somewhat awkwardly attempted to help the discussion along here:
http://testinfected.blogspot.com/2007/10/altnetconf-behavior-driven-design.html
Don’t comment on things that you don’t know about. I won’t speculate as to why you have stated misrepresentations of the truth such as, “[The Alt.Net conference] mainly serves to allow all of the ALT.NET developers to come together to talk about how great it is that they are all ALT.NET” But, I will say, “Nonsense!” You weren’t there. The driving force behind the discussions was always better understanding of what others are finding to be useful practices. Everyone learned from each other. Everyone wants to take the things that they learned back to their teams and their blog audiences to get better.
If you want more detail, ask those that you think have it. I believe that you will have a hard time backing up your assertion that the attendees haven’t made an attempt to help others understand these concepts. Two easy counterexamples are Jeremy Miller and Martin Fowler.
The tone of the conference was actually one of attempting to foster unity in the .Net community while at the same time showing the beauty of effective tools to others – regardless of who developed them.
A different idea by its very nature is divisive. Some will agree while others don’t. While this cannot be helped, it can be mitigated if those with new ideas are open and accessible. To that end, I credit you for leaving comments enabled on this post while others have ranted and disabled comments.
Eric Andersoni think that’s the right question: why is there a need for ALT.NET? because there are a lot of Microsoft-oriented devs out there that aren’t open-minded. if they were, the practices ALT.NET is espousing would be “mainstream,” not “alternative.”
sadly, for many Microsoft-oriented devs out there, mainstream == official Microsoft canon only.
Andre[...] Jdn’s blog entry: Bad Analogy Time: Alt.NET Ex-drinkers. And as second, Colin Ramsay’s blog entry: Abandon ALT.NET. I’d like to quote the ‘nail-on-the-head’ remark from Colin below: If they really wanted to change [...]
Alternative Rock - Frans Bouma's blog“Its unfortunate that you werenâ??t there to experience it for yourself, as it was nothing like you imagine. There is no line. There is no clique.”
I wasn’t there (I’m in europe and quite busy, so no time for this conference), but just a small piece of insight:
If you’re IN the clique, you don’t see there IS a clique. Just because the conference was OPEN, doesn’t mean large droves of people who have never heard of it were there. Most, if not all, attendees were there because they heard about the term, have already participated in the discussions about the term etc. That’s with all conferences which are focussed on a more or less narrow scope.
Mind you, I find the idea of a movement who has influence on MS interesting and if that movement can come up with a clear mission statement I can perhaps join that movement. It’s now simply blurry what they stand for (as it appears to differ from person to person).
Frans BoumaI keep hearing how ALT.NET guys are such an exclusive community and so much looking down on everyone else. I’m the last to deny that such a tone ocassionally slips into the blogs I’m reading, but I’d have to think that this is often from frustration rather than a sense of superiority. However, I don’t remember any of them being even remotely as negative, insulting and ignorant of realtiy as your posting here.
Stefan WenigWhy ist here a need? Because some people feel more comfortable using this than that. This should be enough justification for anyone to at least not be aggressive. Whether you buy into it is a completely different matter.
Stefan:
I’m personally offended by the use of the term “Mort”. The subject of my post is not about what technologies you’re most comfortable using, so I don’t think you can be justified in calling me “ignorant of reality” when you’ve not really appreciated what I was trying to say.
I think that’s my failing – I focused my post in the wrong areas and distracted from the real discussion by using a few inflammatory terms. For that, I apologise.
Colin Ramsay[...] DISCLAIMER: This post was inspired by, and contains material from, a recent post on my personal blog entitled "Abandon ALT.NET". [...]
Why ALT.NET? - Colin RamsayI like this post. Its laughable and great to share with the rest of the community just how so much ignorance is born from a lack of willingness to engage and understand.
Thanks for attending the conference is sharing your feedback of what the community is all about. Oh wait…
Raymond Lewallen“Its unfortunate that you werenâ??t there to experience it for yourself, as it was nothing like you imagine. There is no line. There is no clique. The reason you werenâ??t there is NOT because you werenâ??t allowed to come, it was because you chose not to.”
That’s not true. When I first went to the altnetconf website to look at registration mere days after registration was announced, I was rewarded with a sentence that said “The event is sold out. Your registration will be accepted, but you will be on a waiting list.
There are XXX people ahead of you.”
I think it is pretty clear to everybody who is not part of the alt.net clique, that it is a clique, and the developer community in general is not wanted. Go try it yourself… The website still displays the message:
http://www.altnetconf.com/participants/new
The Other Steve[...] those thinking that alt.net is negative and is divisive I remind of you David Laribee’s post several months ago about proposing the alt.net name. Now [...]
Alt.net IS NOT Devisive | Adam Tybor's BlogI would consider myself a rookie compared to all the attendee’s at the conference and at no point did I feel excluded or feel pressured to adopt anything specific. I felt that my opinion was just as valuable as the next person’s and that is what made it a great conference. It’s unfortunate you weren’t there Colin because there was great conversation and debate that could only exist in a open environment like open spaces. I look forward to the future where alt.net can help grow with the entire .net community.
Adam TyborAdam:
I think it’s pretty much a given that most people at the conference *wanted* to be there and would enjoy it.
Colin Ramsay[...] Ramsay says to Abandon ALT.NET! A lot of people in the ALT.NET camp may not feel that theyâ??re being divisive but I can tell you [...]
Jay R. Wren - lazy dawg evarlast » Blog Archive » A Line In The Sand Has Always ExistedWhat I find the most hypocritical of all this noise about ALT.NET is that by contributing to the larger discussion via blogs or comments – you are ALT.NET
You are willing to vocalize frustrations, debate topics, and look for better ways of doing things. This is exactly what happened this weekend in Austin only the topics were much more valuable than talking about which Sneetches have stars on their bellies.
Their is no clique, and the size of the conference was kept small such that it was maintainable. So all I can say Colin, Frans, whomever – congratulations, you fit very well into the ALT.NET definition and don’t know it.
Max PoolOther Steve,
The language you cited from the registration page was only deployed to the site on Friday, so you couldn’t have seen it mere days after the conference was announced.
That language was put up as a request to registrants who wanted to know how many people were on the list ahead of them. It was put in play at the 11th hours, but we put in the work nonetheless.
I’m not quite sure how a conference whose attendance is capped at 100 people, and over-sold by 20 people – that sells out in a few days – is a clique. There’s certainly a community here and it’s a community that accepted all comers of all levels.
Scott BellwareScott: I think Other Steve was joking.
Colin RamsayWell, I *hope* Other Steve was joking.
Colin RamsayColin, you said:
“If they really wanted to change things then they should be writing about their techniques in detail, coming up with introductory guides to DDD, TDD, mocking, creating screencasts, or giving talks at mainstream conferences, or producing tools to make the level of entry to these technologies lower than it is.”
I can come up with many many examples of people that were at the conference (and many who weren’t) doing exactly those things! Jeremy Miller, who many people seem to be attacking, wrote a 14 part blog series on ‘writing your own CAB’ – if that isn’t technical detail, what is? Jay Flowers has tools like CI Factory that make continuous integration easier. I could go on, but I think you see where I am coming from.
To me, the most amazing thing about the event was that everyone there realizes that the name is divisive, and that goes against the spirit of the ideas and values that seemed to be shared.
I hope that everyone can stop being negative and just start “writing about their techniques in detail, coming up with introductory guides to DDD, TDD, mocking, creating screencasts, or giving talks at mainstream conferences, or producing tools to make the level of entry to these technologies lower than it is.”
I think that everyone agrees violently on that. Anyone saying otherwise is misunderstanding things, IMHO.
Steve DonieONLINE – DRUGSTORE!
PRICES of ALL MEDICINES!
FIND THAT NECESSARY…
VIAGRA, CIALIS, PHENTERMINE, SOMA… and other pills!
Welcome please: pills-prices.blogspot.com
NEW INFORMATION ABOUT PAYDAY LOANS!
Welcome please: payday-d-loans.blogspot.com
GOOD LUCK!
ulceplycrxnw afsd cjhwfok urwv qstbcampl wjuseg bpem
cpeij@mail.comHeh.. Are you interested in my success prayer Sorry, for off top, i wanna tell one joke) What goes “Tick tock, woof woof”? A watch dog.
SkepaywelayHey ppl, i’ve move colinramsay.co.uk when i searched google
Apongeoccalgefor a mellifluous and pragmatic forum, and i as a consequence-and-as a consequence to loiter here)
if you comprise rate for my english crap… so be it, i’m de jure learning
Good time, it’s a job offer. (Sorry if I post it in wrong place)
Cyprus company is seeking a Campaign Executive to assist with fundraising, presentations, various administrative and sales management duties. If you have fundraising and sales experience, plus intermediate computer knowledge, this job is for you! Apply with us today!
All applicants applying for U.S. job openings must be authorized to work in the United States. All applicants applying for European job openings must be authorized to work in European Union.
We are growing advertising and consulting company offering job opportunities ranging from executive and administrative assistants to customer service representatives, receptionists and general support.
NOTICE: we do not provide relocation, this position is online based, we are using progressive online administrative system. You will have to use a special online training program for free.
Requirements and skills:
1. Higher Education/College
2. 1 + Sales/Management (desired but optional)
3. Strong communicative skills
4. Must have MS Office installed (MS Word)
5. Must have citizenship or Work Permit
6. Adult age
Education and Experience:
1. Internet/MS Office/Outlook
2. Sales/Management/Marketing courses (desired)
Hours:
Mon-Fri; 9:30am – 12:30pm
Apply for this job now or contact our online branch support for additional information:
CV to e-mail director@mygogreens.com
jobbercypr